Changing the cross-over settings after running Audyssey

I change my sub av crossover from 150hz to 80hz as it was too much at 150hz.

Sorry, previous post should read "In the end changing the mains to SMALL and raising the crossover to 60 or 80 hz fixed the problem and allowed me to turn the MultiEq back on."

Hi Ray,

1. Correct.

2. Audyssey found the roll off to be 40 Hz and I am fairly certain that is correct.  Proximity to walls and corners can have a huge effect on the roll off frequency of a speaker

3. No, there is no trouble.  Just change any Large speaker to Small after the calibration is finished.

Thanks Chris,

Just regarding #2, with the crossover set to 40hz, speakers set to small, and MultiEQ on, some bass frequencies are most definitely missing.  Shutting off MultiEQ fixes the problem, and alternatively leaving MultiEQ on but setting the crossover to 60hz fixes the problem.  That makes me think that either the eq curve or the 40hz roll off must be wrong, no?  

Ok, I have done some more experiments with interesting results.  I started by rerunning the auto-setup just to make there was no transient problem.  Again, it set mains to large upon changing them to small, the crossover was set at 40hz.  I listened to the Diana Krall's "All or Nothing At All" repeatedly moving the crossover up from 40 hz, and got quite interesting results.

• With MultiEQ OFF, the recording sounded more or less unchanged as I moved the crossover up until I got to (a fairly extreme) 120 hz, at which point bass got a little boomy, but not terribly so.

• With MultiEQ ON, bass was getting a bit boomy even at 60hz, and any crossovers higher than 80hz were completely unbearable.

So, my situation appears to be that if I want to use the MultiEQ, then I need to leave the crossover set down to 40 hz where the auto setup detected it.  

I would have suspected that the sub level was simply too high, but it was set by the auto setup, and the test with MultiEQ OFF shows that the response is pretty consistent up to a crossover of at least 100hz.

Any ideas why MultiEQ seems to give me way to much bass if I raise the crossover?  

Ray, are you sure you don't have Audyssey Dynamic EQ enabled??  Also, are you sure that you do not have any type of eq or filter enabled on your subwoofer??  Also, is the sub level set by Audyssey not at an extreme (ie. not at +12 or -12).  BTW, I am assuming you DO have a subwoofer if you are setting your speakers to "small".  What sub do you have, and where is it positioned?

I ran these tests with Dynamic EQ off and at reasonable level for focused listening.  I had previously had the filter on the sub set all the way up, but I just now realized that there is an input to bypass the sub's crossover altogether, so I reran the setup, manually set the speakers to "small" and retested with the sub's crossover completely bypassed. It might have made a slight improvement, but by no means eliminated the effect. It is still the case that if I move the crossover on the AVR up to 80hz the bass gets quite boomy with MultiEQ ON and is perfectly fine with MultiEQ off.  Frankly, I don't even know for sure that I should care about this; perhaps I should just leave the crossover at the 40 that Audyssey assigned and forget about it, but I can't help thinking that something is out of whack here.  With MultiEQ OFF, the sound remains consistent even with a crossover setting quite high; for example at 150 hz crossover, the sub is unbearably overpowering with MultiEQ, but just fine and smooth without the MultiEQ.

The sub is a Mirage BPS-150i.  I haven't shopped for a sub in forever and I can believe that there is probably a better choice out there.  I've played with the positioning some and I can lessen the deleterious effect if I move it way out into the room, but even still the performance with MultiEQ worsens (gets very boomy) as I move the crossover on the AVR higher, whereas wthe performance remains consistent MultiEQ OFF.  The best placement I've found that isn't aesthetically awkward is between between a front speaker and the electronics, about 12 inches off the back wall.

I am sure you have read this before, but it always helps me to re-read it if I haven't done so in a while:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14456895#post14456895

It is a good reminder of how important mic positioning is (like making sure you are using a proper tri-pod, don't have the mic placed within 1 foot of a wall, using the proper sequence for measurements, etc).

You may also want to verify that you are using the right Audyssey mic with your receiver.  Maybe you can acquire a new one if you think it may have been dropped or damaged. 

Thanks for the link; I had read that before.  The mic is brand new and came with the receiver so it seems unlikely that it's damaged.  I wonder if something about the way my particular sub reproduces sound is screwing up the Audyssey calculation.  I'm temped to try a different sub.

Can others confirm that they can raise the crossover to 80/100/120 without getting severe boomyness in the bass, at least no more so with MultiEQ on than with it off?

This thread has been great, but I'm left being confused about what Audyssey / Marantz SR7005 did with my setup.  After running the auto setup, my mains, Sonus Faber Concertos, were set to FullRange and the center Concerto was set to 40hz crossover.  The low bass on stereo music was distinctly lacking.  Interestingly if I shut off the MultiEq XT, the bass would return.  Looking at the MutliEq curves displayed by the 7005, they were set low on the 60 hz end, so it makes sense that shutting off the MultiEq XT helped. However, the curve that MultiEq set also makes sense because I know my room has a big bump around the 60hz range. When I realized it had set the mains to Large, I went to Manual setup and set them to "Small".  It didn't help any so I looked at the crossover that it had set to 40hz.  

In the end changing the mains to Large and raising the crossover to 60 or 80 hz fixed the problem and allowed me to turn the MultiEq back on.

The questions I have are

1. From reading this and other threads, it sounds like it was the AVR, not Audyssey that decided incorrectly to set my speakers to Large, correct?

2. Even so, I assume the 40hz crossover came from Audyssey, but 40hz was definitely not correct either. 

3. Is all this indicative of some trouble in the auto setup that maybe I should retry or persue with Marantz?

Well, I think I give up...  I tried another sub in case it was some weird interaction with Audyseey and my sub, but the new sub has the same problem.  If I set the crossover at anything other than 40, with MultiEQ on, it gets really boomy.  With MultiEQ off everything is fine no matter what I pick for a crossover.  The Audyssey stuff was a big selling feature for me, and I still have a window to return this AVR so maybe I need to just use a different product :( 

Dear Chris,

Today I measured my Onkyo 5509 by the Pro Kit, the crossover setting by MultEQ are:

L/R/C/LB/RB: 40Hz

LS/RS: 60Hz

I applied the filter by these default crossover, and felt weak bass than before (measured by Onkyo and manually set the crossover to 80Hz).

The L/R is 3-way bass-reflex floor standing speaker, with one 8" bass unit, frequency response is 38Hz~20kHz. The test pattern roll off 60Hz as attached picture.

The C is 2-way bass-reflex bookshelf speakers, with one 6.5" bass unit, frequency response is 40Hz~20kHz. The test pattern roll off on 80Hz as attached picture.

The Back & Suround is 2-way sealed bipole speaker with two 6" base units, frequency response is 100Hz~20Hz.

Physically the Back & Suround speakers cannot produce frequency below 100Hz, but why the crossover detect by MultEQ is 40Hz & 60Hz? Did the measurement cheat by standing waves?

My room size is 1120×430×270cm. Calcaulted by the sound waves formula, the standing waves are 30Hz, 40~45Hz, 60~63Hz, 75~80Hz, 120~126Hz. I have test and proved the 30Hz and 40Hz standing waves before.

Please see the Correction Results in my account, there are all raised around 120Hz on suround speakers before MultEQ. Ather MultEQ, those raised is smooth and roll off from 40Hz or 60Hz. So the crossover is set to 40Hz or 60Hz.

But these speakers cannot produce 100Hz below, if the signal below 100Hz on these channels did not transfer to subwoofer by setting the crossover to 100Hz manually, then will be missed on playback. So the bass is less and weak by missing frequency signals.

I have read many discussions about crossover in this forums. Most are talking about what is the standard or right setting. But no says the crossover cannot be set under the capacity of speaker, otherwise some bass will be missing on playback. Will you please verify this opinion right or wrong?

Thank you!

Kingyu

Attached files.

Hi Kingyu,

The theoretical specification of a speaker does not know anything about where the speaker is in your room. It definitely possible that your surround speakers are producing bass below 100 Hz if they are placed near a corner, for example.  In any case, it's no problem to move the crossover up to a higher frequency so that more content is sent the sub. 

Dear Chris,

I think 90% people doing the calibration on their AVR don't know this, so they will miss something by using the default crossover setting by MultEQ.

Is that a good idea to add a procedure before Subwoofer Level Matching, to let user input the low-end frequency of each speakers? If MultEQ knew these info first, it can analysis more and better about the sound lower than the speaker capacity as standing wave and acoustics problem?

Dear Chris,

Another problem effected by standing wave is subwoofer. The Subwoofer Level Matching needs to turn the subwoofer volume to match 75dB. But in most case, the measure level will be higher than the subwoofer volume because of adding standing wave.

I do the calibration about 10 times with Onkyo and 1 time with Pro Kit, and the results are same. My subwoofer is SVS PB13-U, powerful enough and no compromise. Factury default volume is -20dB.

PB13-U volume -33dB, measure level 76~77dB, Trim +4.5dB (other chanels -3dB ~ -5dB), feel bass not enough.

PB13-U volume -28dB, measure level 81~82db, Trim 0dB (other chanels -3dB ~ -5dB), feel bass good but more will be better.

PB13-U volume -20dB, measure level very high(forgot), Trim -12dBdB (other chanels -3dB ~ -5dB), feel bass too much. Is standing wave too much?

I am thinking to set the volume -23dB ~ -25dB, in order to let the Trim set about -3dB ~ -5dB as other chanels. Will it be the best? ;-)

Hope Audyssey will find out better way to get to the best.

There is no need to input the low frequency limit of the sub.  Audyssey finds it and stops correction below that point. But, it's the in-room roll off that it finds. The theoretical one doesn't matter.

Also I think you are expecting something different from Audyssey. When you say "feel that bass is not enough" this is your personal preference.  Audyssey doesn't know your preference. It only knows the studio reference and the calibration is adjusted to match that.  If you want more bass it's OK to raise the level, but you will no longer be at reference.

After reading many of the posts in the AVS forums I think I found my answer. Raising the Cross-over setting after Audyssey has been run does not affect the calibration. The real question I guess now is if your front speakers can play well below 80hz as mine can, what is the best cross-over setting to use. This seems to be a little more elusive. 

Chris, thank you so much for your response and time in answering all our questions. 

It is funny that you mention speakers being blaced near a wall or near a corner, because I have both scenarios in my application.

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-MrwC84S1Lls/Tbrjhtra4yI/AAAAAAAAHGw/i7-9yybzgOY/s640/April%2525202011%252520019%252520%2525282%252529.JPG[/IMG]

[IMG]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-asgacd_za3E/TbrjqDCGP6I/AAAAAAAAHG4/uDNMrnFVI8M/s640/April%2525202011%252520025.JPG[/IMG]

 Audyssey/AVR set the Left and Right at 40Hz, and my center at 60Hz (I have the rear port plugged on the center).  I bumped up the L/R to 60Hz.. 

In theory I still wonder if it is better to follow THX recommendations (where it is believed the sub will do a better job playing frequencies below 80Hz vs the mains).  I will have to experiment with my own ears in my own room to come to conclusions with my set-up.

Hi Pradeep,

The positioning of the speaker greatly affects the low frequency roll off.  For example, if a speaker is near a wall or corner then it will extend below the roll off frequency listed in the specifications.  Typically, we recommend leaving the crossover where the measurements found it.  However, moving it up to a slightly higher frequency is fine as well.  You may want to simply give it a try.

Yes, when you set a crossover frequency the bass management system sends all content below that frequency to the subwoofer.  In addition, the content in the separate LFE track is sent to the subwoofer as well.  The LFE track is separate and doesn't depend on the crossover setting for each of the satellite speakers.

First off, this "Ask Audyssey" is a great tool for the Audyssey enabled audio enthusiast!  Thank you. 

I too frequent AVS Forum (deepstang).  I went from an Onkyo 605 2eq to the new Denon 2112 w/ MultEQ XT.  I was happy to see that Audyssey properly set my dual subs to 120Hz for the LFE.  As usual, the main's were crossed at 40Hz, and the center at 60Hz.  I can see your logic that crossing higher is better as the sub filter by Audyssey MultEQ has much higher resolution for the sub vs the mains. 

This may be unfair to ask, as it may be application specific.

Premise:

1) THX recommends main's to be crossed at 80Hz, because it is believed that the subs can do a better job reproducing sound below 80Hz (compared to the main speakers).

2)  Audyssey and the AVR processor is properly equipped to analyze, measure the main speaker's capabilities, and set appropriate crossovers.

3)  Audyssey MultEQ has much higher resolution for the sub vs the mains. 

Question:

What should action should the user take when Audyssey and the AVR sets the crossover point at 40Hz or 60Hz? 

1) Would it be best for the user to leave the settings found by Audyssey and the AVR?

2) Should the user manually change the crossover for the mains to 80Hz as THX recommends?

3) Maybe should a hybrid measure be done where the crossover for the mains is increased only by 20Hz of what Auydyssey/AVR sets in an attempt that the speaker is not rolling off to early?

Question:

When the crossover points of the mains are set, does information below the crossover point going to each specific [main] channel get automatically pushed to the sub?  Also, the information from the LFE channel is only directed to the sub, regardless of where the mains are crossed....right?

Thank you in advance! 

Got 2Eq.
I had to reduce crossover too 80hz as I could pin point sub at 150hz, plus at 150hz the place was shaking bad at ref level which I always listen at.

Roll off means the frequency at which the speaker response starts to decrease.  The crossover consists of two filters: One is a highpass that sends the higher frequency content to the speaker.  The other is a lowpass that sends the lower frequency content to the sub.  Crossovers only exist in AVRs.  The filter on the back of the subwoofer is just a lowpass filters and is not a crossover.  It is there for people with old 2-ch analog gear that has no bass management.

MultEQ measures the roll off of the speaker in your room.  It doesn't matter what the spec sheet says.  The room and speaker position change the low frequency performance.  So, MultEQ will stop applying correction below 150 Hz in your case.  If you move the crossover lower than that then MultEQ will not be applying correction below it.  Sound will still play, but we don't recommend doing that.

Please ignore the "10-20 Hz higher" suggestion.  That is internet talk and not based on any science.  Best to leave the crossover at the frequency that MultEQ found.

Just read sub crossover should be 10hz or 20hz above lowest frequency of mains.
Sound right?

Can you explain "roll off".
My speakers are 80hz-20k and subs 27hz-150hz.
Only crossover I have is in av for sub.
Av amps default is 150hz. After running your software (crossover says 150hz) will I lose anything from other speakers if I put crossover to 80hz instead of the 150hz.

MultEQ does not set crossovers.  It simply finds the roll off that each speaker has in the room and where it's placed.  The crossovers are set by the AVR maker.  There is a benefit in raising the crossover up: the MultEQ filters in the subwoofer channel have 8x more resolution and so will produce a smoother bass response.  I would recommend using 80 Hz.

A question about ceiling speakers: I have been told that even though MultEQXT set my ceiling speakers crossover to 40Hz, it would be better to raise the crossover to at least 100Hz, in order to minimize problems caused by the speakers being flush with the ceiling surface. Your thoughts?

Hi Chris -

Thanks for the detail on the AVR's "sub crossover" - that was news to me.

Last night, I re-located the sub, re-calibrated using MultEQ and raised the front crossover as you recommended.  I noticed a big improvement, especially in the bass clarity.  No more saturation or volume spikes during LFE-heavy scenes.

Thanks for the advice, Chris, much appreciated.

Hi Kip,

There is no issue with your receiver.  First let's clarify the sub issue.  There is no such thing as a "sub crossover". The 80 Hz that you see there is an *incorrect* decision made by Onkyo (and many other AVR makers).  That filter only applies to the separate LFE track found in 5.1 content.  It has nothing to do with the bass from the other speakers in the system.  The LFE track is authored to have content up to 120 Hz and so any other choice is incorrect.  Please change the LFE LPF (low pass filter) to 120 Hz.  The lowpass filter on the sub itself should be all the way up to the highest frequency (as you have it).  That function is performed correctly by the bass management system in the Onkyo that applies the proper highpass and lowpass filters to the signals going to all speakers.

Now, this won't fix the issue you are having.  That is most likely due to acoustical problems in your room that are concentrated in that region. Raising the crossover to a higher frequency has the huge benefit of sending more content to the sub.  The MultEQ subwoofer filter has 8x more resolution that what is found in the other speakers and this will provide a much smoother bass response.

I am running a similar setup, but I'm having a different problem...

After running the calibration on my Onkyo 807, Audyssey sets the front mains' crossover to 60Hz.  The sub's crossover is set to 80Hz and I've got the low pass filter all the way open.

The effect I'm getting is something of a saturation in the 60-80Hz band where both the mains and sub are playing on that frequency.  The result is major volume spikes when watching action movies and some types of music.  

Like most people who picked out front channel speakers based on their low-end range, I'd prefer not to raise the crossover to 80Hz, but this overlap seems to be causing me problems.  Is there a calibration adjustment I can make, or could this indicate a possible issue w/ my receiver?