Subwoofer setup and MultEQ

@Ryan

I have no idea what the Flat, Punch and Depth settings do on your sub.  I would hope that Flat is just that and would recommend going with it.  As for the sib trim showing up between ±3 dB, that's one of those internet myths that is going around.  That level adjustment is just a relative number that makes sure your sub is playing at the same level as the other speakers.  It will depend on where you set the analog volume control on the back of your sub.

@Dennis 

1) There are two main benefits that two subs give you.  The first is greatly improved low frequency headroom.  Depending on the size of your room (and any adjacent connected spaces) this can help you play the subs at reference levels.  The second benefit is that you will get a smoother bass response if you drive the room modes from two different points.  This takes some experimentation with placement, but the results are generally better.  The Sub EQ HT algorithm in the 3008 lets you then equalize the two subs for a proper blend.

2) Subwoofer controls should be avoided.  Setting the lowpass filter to bypass is a good thing because otherwise that filter interferes with proper bass management in the AVR.  All other knobs should not be used and they will do more harm then good as you found out.  It is critical to use all 8 available measurement positions as shown in the diagram, even if you only have 1 listening seat.  The algorithm needs to collect all the data it can from your room.

3) Yes, this "advice" is a little outdated.  For example, the processing in many subs can't be turned off and it adds delay.  If you just measure with a tape measure you will set the distance incorrectly.  Audyssey measures the signal delay instead and compensates for the delay in the sub.  The sub placement advice is not bad.  Starting with a better response will give you better final results.  The problem is: how will you know what you are starting with? Can't be done by ear...

Chris, Thanks for the great commentary on sub-woofers.  I also have the Klipsch RW-12d and didn't understand the settings.  Your comments were a great help.  The default factory settings appear to be correct for running the microphone calibration.  The sub allows for saving three presets, so I saved these factory defaults to the "Movie" preset.  I'll most likely tweak the sub down for the "Music" preset and down further for the "Night" preset.  A setting that was being questioned by ryan was an EQ Mode for Flat, Punch and Depth.  The manual states that “Punch” setting emphasizes the 60Hz region while the “Depth” setting boosts the 30Hz range. Flat (default) defeats, i.e. disables, the EQ, so the assumption is to leave set to Flat in order to leave the audio untouched.  Another setting that is explained in the manual is "Phase".  I assume I should just follow the instructions.  The default is 0 degrees.  Any thoughts on this?

“Phase” - This screen is used to adjust the subwoofer’s acoustic

phase to match that of your main speakers. Use the Left/Right

cursor keys to adjust the subwoofer’s phase from 0° to 180°.

The proper setting of this control is highly dependant on room

acoustics and the position of your subwoofer in the room. After

setting the volume and lowpass controls set the phase to 0° and

listen to a recording with a prominent, repeating bass line in your

intended listening position. Repeat this process with the 180°

setting and use the setting that yields the greatest amount of

bass output. If neither of these settings is better than the other

experiment with intermediate settings. From this screen press the

down or up cursor key to access other control settings.

Hi John, If your goal is to calibrate your home theater to the same conditions used during the mix then the Punch and Depth settings have no place in that.  They are intended for those who want to "remix" the content and add elements not there in the original.  

Phase is also not useful in subwoofers because it only makes adjustments at one frequency (that they conveniently don't mention in the manual).  It's best left at 0°.  

Chris - I have a Denon AVR 791 and Definitive Technology ProCinema 800 speakers. I am using the LFE input on the sub. The manufactures directions have me putting the variable low pass crossover in the 2 o'clock position  between 95 and 150. I am not sure if this is supposed to be turned completely up or not if I am using the LFE.

Hi Joe,

The crossover function is best performed in the AVR so you should set the knob to the highest frequency and keep it out of the way.  Actually, it's not a crossover that the knob controls.  It's just a lowpass filter that is there for people with legacy gear that doesn't have modern bass management.  A modern AVR doesn't need that filter on the sub.

Chris - Thanks for the quick reply and all of the very helpful information on here.

Hi Chris,

This sort of picks up on John Walshaw's question .. sort of.  Some have had success tweaking the sub channel distance to achieve a smoother blend between sub and mains.  The one example I know of first hand had three subs run on one sub channel on the pre/pro and a huge dip was made fairly flat with this technique.

Does MultEQ consider distance for smoothing the splice, or just sets distances based on the detection process and then EQ the splice region as best it can?

Rgds, Jeff

Ooops, no edit ...

The sub channel distance was manipulated after setting up Audyssey.  The dip was removed at the MLP (and very nearby); I do not know if he looked at what effect that had across the entire seating area.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

MultEQ sets the distances (actually the delays) based on the detection.  The assumption is that equidistant speakers and sub(s) produce a smooth blend.  The question is where is that blend measured? In a single point measurement after calibration, that may not be as evident...

Hi Chris,

My set up is Onkyo 606 receiver, bose 301 front speakers, Accusound 200 watts center speaker, jamo sub 200 as subwoofer ,jamo cube speakers as suround and rear surround.

When I do auto set-up with Audyssey couple of times and run it again it seems like I had lost the sound of my sub woofer. I still got power with my sub and I tried to used another cable for the sub but still can't get a sound from my sub.

Your help is very much appreciated....

Hi, Does Onkyo set your front speakers to Full Range after Audyssey is finished? If it does, then that means "don't send bass to the subwoofer".  You have to make sure they are not set to Full Range by selecting a crossover frequency for the speakers.  Unfortunately Audyssey is not allowed to make the decision about when speakers are Full Range to avoid this confusion...

Hi Chris,

I recently set up Multi Eq Pro on my Denon 4810 and made a big difference in the highs and the sound was overall much cleaner than the regular in-built multi xt. So I think it was worth the investment for the Pro setup. This was a family room with high-ceiling and open spaces.

Do you think that getting the Sub Eq will make a further difference to the audio quality? I have a velodyne DD-12 sub that has its own parametric equalizer.

Thanks,

Subu

Hi Subu, It's almost impossible to predict the improvements without measuring your room.  The main benefit of the Sub EQ is that it blends two subwoofers to give you an improvement over equalizing each one separately.  

Hello Chris,

Need your advise.  I recently upgraded my HT system with Denon's AVR and PMA - A100 units along with a JL audio Fathom f112 sub.  The one thing I kept from my old system was my MK MX-105 subwoofer.

I left the MK sub on my system under the assumption that it would be properly integrated into it with the use of Audyssey's MultEQ XT 32 found on my Denon AVR.

The sound coming out my system is a marked improvement over what I had before for both music and movies, I do however find that when playing movies with high LFE content the sound tends to get too "muddy" and I am wondering if this has to do with the use of the different subs.

I have followed pretty closely all sub recommendation placements and setup guides found here and on various places on the internet (AVS forum for example).  Here are my configs: LPF for LFE at 80Hz (did this based on instructions from the JL sub owners manual), crossover freq at 60Hz for both front and center speakers, LPF on subwoofers themselves are turned off.

My question to you.  Am I right by assuming that MultEQ XT 32 would integrated these two subs properly?  I have observed that if I change the phase on the MK sub from 0 to 180 the bass becomes much more powerful with a lot more punch (done after MultEQ equalization), if I leave both at 0degrees I definitely can tell the difference in bass.  I know it is recommended that you always leave the sub phase at 0degrees so I am a little puzzled as to why the difference in sound.

Appreciate your thoughts and advise.  The specs for each sub are below for your review.

MK MX-105 specs: dual 12" drivers (push pull); power 125 watts RMS; freq response 20 - 200 Hz +- 2dB

JL f112 specs: single sealed 12" driver; power 1500 watts RMS short-term; frequency response (anechoic) 21 - 119 Hz (+1.5 dB)

Hi William,

First let's start with the simple stuff: the LPF of the LFE should ALWAYS be set to 120 Hz in the AVR. Content in the separate LFE track found in 5.1 content is authored up to 120 Hz.  Any other setting is just plain wrong.  Unfortunately many in the industry (including the AVR makers themselves) don't fully understand this setting.  Frankly, it should not even be an adjustable setting at all.  It has nothing to do with bass management...

Now regarding the sub blending.  Let's not confuse "more powerful/louder" with better.  The purpose of equalization is to produce a smooth response in the bass that matches the smoothed response of the main speakers.  That's reference.  If you have a preference for more/louder bass that's fine, but it's not going to be achieved through Audyssey.  The difference you are hearing is expected: you are changing the acoustical summation of the two subs when you flip the phase on one of them.  That's not how Audyssey measured them.  If this happens to produce a peak at a certain frequency then it will sound louder there.  

Thanks for your quick response Chris,

Didn't realize that's what occurred when changing the phase in one of them, that is probably not a good thing and will make sure both phases are at 0.  I will also switch the LPF to 120Hz and rerun Audyssey.

Based on the sub specs for the MK and JL, do you think that I am limiting myself by using both (or I should say, limiting the JL sub).  I did try using just the JL and then running the Audissey equalization with just the one sub, however I felt I lost something when I did that so I went back to using the MK.  Perfect world would be for me to use another JL f112, but funds do not permit that at the moment so I  am trying to use what I have and the MK is still in good shape.

Just wondering what your thoughts were on that.

No need to rerun the calibration.  All AVR internal settings are ignored when you run it, so it's just a matter of not messing with it later.  

I don't think you are limiting your system with the two subs.  They are not really all that different and driving the low frequencies in the room from more than one point has significant benefits.

I'm sorry to ask this Cris, but I'm still confused. If I have 2 subs (front left, near front left main, and front right, near the from t right main speaker) and a new AVR with Sub-Eq (denon sc-PR5508 in my case), are you saying it's STILL preferable to use a Y-splitter and run those 2 subs off of one output connector?? If yes, then I just don't understand what sub-Eq is good for? I though it was specifically for the difficulties in configuring multiple subs in a room.

Josh, I believe you mean Onkyo SC-PR5508. Since that product has the Audyssey Sub EQ HT functionality you don't have to use an external splitter.  My comment was for products that have only one sub output or simply copy the content to a second output.  Sub EQ HT was designed to ping each sub separately at first, to find the proper distance and level adjustment between the two.  Then after applying the relative distance and level corrections, it pings them together to create the MultEQ correction filters for the combined acoustical response.

Thanks Chris! (yes, of course I did mean Onkyo, not Denon!).

Hi Chris,

I would like to be able to setup Audyssey Multi Eq Pro in my system by myself using the setup kit. Do I need to be an authorized dealer to be able to do this? The kit is available for puschase but looks like you need a dealer code to get into the PRO software. The PRO setup seems to be very sensitive to speaker or furniture placement changes.

Thanks,

Subu

Hi Subu, You need a MultEQ Pro enabled AVR.  Please contact techsupport@audyssey.com for information on how to purchase the kit.

Hi Chris,

I have the Denon 4810 and have set up the Multi Eq pro earlier. I had to go through an Authorized Audyssey installer to do this. I would like to do this myself so every time I change the speaker position, I do not need to call the installer to do this for me. I know that I need to purchase the kit to do this. In addition, I will need to use the PRO software. From what I heard, the access to use the PRO software is given only to dealers. Is this true?

Thanks,

Subu

Hi Subu,

Please contact techsupport@audyssey.com.  They can answer these questions for you.  If you purchase the kit, it will include the microphone and the necessary software.  You will also have to purchase a license key for your AVR.  That can be done on the Audyssey website once you register your kit serial number with our database.

Hi Chris,
I have a marantz sr5005 and klipsch synergy series floor standing speakers with surround and center speaker and sw 350 sub. The sub is placed next to main listening sofa.
The problem i have is that bass comes mostly from the two front speakers and there is very less bass from sw. I have kept low pass to bypass, volume to middle (will turn it down as it gives a high negative in adysseys), phase to 0. Aydysseys also gie high negative trims (-5) on the speakers as well. I have several questions:
1. At what settings should i run audyssey to get better bass from sw, or rather should i run audysseys at all considering the fact that i stay close to the airport in mumbai and there is always loud noise of airplanes taking off.
2. What is sw mode in the avr... It gives a setting of lfe or lfe+main. Which one should i select.
3. How is the distance of the sw calculated. Although it is just next to the sitting area, audyssey calculates a very large distance. Is it from avr or from main sitting area.
4. Audysseys always sets the front speakers as large during calibration and no sound comes from sw. So have to change it back to small after audyssey multi eq settings are complets. How does this affect the sound.
5. Id thers a good place to read the manual configs with crossovers required as i feel the audyssey will not work properly in so much sound.

Hi Nitin,

It sounds like Marantz is setting your speakers to Large.  Is that the case? It's a bad idea because it means: don't send bass to the sub.  Please take a look here for more of my thoughts on this:

http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/small-vs-large/

The sub mode in the AVR should always be LFE and never LFE+Main because that duplicates the bass and causes boomy sound.  Please read here for more on sub settings:

http://ask.audyssey.com/forums/84181/entries/76175.html

Sub distance measures the physical distance and the signal delay that is caused by the filters in the sub:

http://ask.audyssey.com/entries/227570-subwoofer-distance

The distance is always calculated from the first mic position--not from the AVR.  What matters is where you are seated and that's where the mic should be placed first.

Audyssey does NOT set speakers to Large or Small.  The AVR does.  We recommend to ALWAYS set speakers to Small after calibration is finished for the reasons described in the link above.

Hi Chris,

I have a Onkyo-TX-NR509 with Jamo 650 SUB.  The knobs on the sub are labeled Cut off frequency (Hx), Phase (Degrees), Boundary Gain Compensation (???) and then there's master volume. 

My main question is, am I supposed to just leave the volume knob half way and then run Audyssey?  I see you mentioned that, but does that mean any future adjustments are done through the receiver and the volume knob forever stays constant?  If you could also comment on Boundary Gain Compensation and how I might use that, I'd appreciate it!

Josh

Hi Josh,

The setting of the sub volume knob doesn't matter as long as MultEQ doesn't come up with a trim setting of –12 dB for the AVR.  If that happens then you are at the limit of the AVR adjustment and you don't know if more level cut is needed to bring the sub level to the required reference setting.  Any other trim level setting is fine.  Once you set the volume control on the sub it's best not to touch it.  If you want to make personal preference level adjustments to the sub level then you can make these in the AVR menu.

BGC is intended to compensate for the bass boost that happens when a sub is placed near walls or corners.  It's a fixed correction that doesn't really know where your sub is and how far from the walls it is located.  My suggestion is to leave it off and let MultEQ take care of the needed compensation.

Hello Chris!

I have just purchased a Onkyo TX SR608 AV receiver and I have 2 subwoofers. 2 different model subs. Both are working and when tested in Audyssey 2EQ, I can feel bass coming from both subs.

When looking at the multiEQ audyssey software via a youtube recording, when the chirping begins and the onscreen icons are displaying the speakers that are detected, I notice that the my 2EQ Audyssey software does NOT display that I have 2 subs, but does push the bass to both. It appears that the mutliEQ version detects two subs and displays it on the screen as having 2 sub icons along with the other speakers that are detected.

Is my second sub being setup/detected properly? Does the 2EQ version show a second sub icon like in the multiEQ setup?

Thank you!

Jonathan