Subwoofer setup and MultEQ

@Rob: You shouldn't have to adjust the gain after calibration.  What master volume is the AVR set to when listening?  If it's near 0 dB then it sounds to me like the sub isn't capable of playing close to reference.  This can be because the room volume is large or because there are adjacent connected spaces that the sub will also try to drive.

Does the problem happen with 5.1 content only or also with 2-ch stereo?

Thanks for the response Chris.

I'm nowhere near reference level when listening - typically between -30 and -15db depending on source. I'm pretty sure the sub would be capable of reference level listening anyway (you can check out the specs here if you like:  http://www.pure-acoustics.com/design/manuals/manual_noble_sub.pdf).

It's a strange one I admit. If we look at it another way, it's as if the gain has to be turned up for MultEQ calibration. When the gain is back down to a quarter of the way up, it seems to be the right volume level, but if I then run MultEQ, the trim is either +12db or is not detected at all.

Hi Chris and thank you for your reply,

Yes I am aware that there are lots of misunderstanding in this area. I’m pretty sure I got it thou and im talking only about 5.1-material here. It’s the just that setting “lpf for lfe” to the recommended 120hz seems to have quite a big effect on bass and I get a bit of localization-issues with the sub behind me to the left. The lfe-track just seems to go up to high with the 120hz setting.  I’m pretty sure I have set everything up correctly: disabling the filter on the sub ect. So another way to ask is: if the 120hz recommendation is regardless of subwoofer placement? Maybe it is just a case of preferred settings vs correct settings where I just prefer something else. Seems I get good result with tuning lpf down to 80hz and then increasing the volume of the subwoofer a bit. Or maybe I need to listen to some more and different material/movies.

Also do I need to rerun Audyssey if I change and experiment with the “lpf for lfe”-setting afterwards? And what are the consequences exactly of a wrong lpf for lfe setting when watching movies?

Kind regards

Jens

@Rob: It could be a problem with the sub's volume control knob. These can develop "dead" regions or mistrack.  I did check out the manual, but it doesn't give any info on max SPL.

@Jens: The content in the LFE track is authored up to 120 Hz.  Lowering the LFE LPF to 80 Hz means that you will be effectively cutting off LFE content in the 80-120 Hz region.  Unlike the bass from the speakers that is redirected to the sub below the crossover frequency, the LFE content will be lost.  This is not an acoustical recommendation and has nothing to do with placement of the sub.

There is no need to re-run Audyssey if you change the LPF setting.  It is completely ignored by Audyssey.  Audyssey measures the acoustical response of the speakers and sub and makes correction filters for them based on the acoustical problems of the room.  It doesn't know what the frequency range of the content coming in will be.  

Chris,

I have a Onkyo 608, polk psw10 sub, Ran Audessy, first attempt didn't find Sub. So I turned the low pass down to it's lowest setting (80hz) previously it was 160=max, and set the the volume on sub to the middle from max.  Ran Audessy again and it did discover the sub this time. However, on the distance in feet setting it says the sub is 15feet away??? All other speakers seem spot on with distance. The sub is right next to my couch(listening area) and is 7-8ft from listening position 3, 5-6 ft from listen position 1, and 4-5 feet from listening position 2.  So why is it saying 15ft? Ran Audessy several times with same results.

Also, from reading your website, after I ran the Audessey, I set the sub Low Pass back to its highest setting of 160hz. I left the volume at Middle setting. Phase is at 0. Is this correct thing to do?

I am getting very little bass. I suppose i can play with the bass setting, currently at +2db.

Summary of questions,

1) Why 15feet?

2) Changed sub settings back to max low pass?

3) Would I be better off with a bigger and/or better sub woofer than this Polk PSW10 (powered)? Room size is 13ftx13ft

Thanks so much, great site!

Hi John,

The lowpass filter must be at the highest setting as described at the start of this thread.  The sub volume may be too high and so you were clipping the measurement data.  Mid level or below is best and MultEQ will set the precise level after it's done.

Subs have filters in them that add delay.  That's why it's best to turn them off.  If you can't then MultEQ will compensate for the added signal delay by increasing the "distance".  You should leave the sub distance as found otherwise you will have improper blending with your other speakers.

I can't really get into recommendations for or against other equipment.  That would get me into trouble--I hope you understand.

Many thanks Chris, I'm pretty sure it must be a problem with the sub. Never heard of "mist rack", was that a typo?

Is this the kind of thing easily repaired, or am I looking at a new sub?

Thanks again for your help, your customer service is phenomenal.

LOL, should be mistrack--autocorrect is always watching...Corrected, thanks.

If the volume knob is faulty then it's easily corrected. But, I am still not sure what the issue is other than "strange behavior".

Chris,

Thanks for the response and quick too even on a Sunday!

Quick questions, does the Audyssey sound check tend to move low end subs (ie. less quality/reputation) subs further in distance (feet) whereas high end (ie, better quality/reputation) subs tend to be set at a closer/lower distance (feet ) from the listening area? Is there a correlation?

Lowpass filter...should I set this as high as it will go before I do the sound check? or do I set it to max after I do the sound check? Said another way..I should only decrease the volume level so that Audyssey can discover the sub?

Thanks so much

No correlation. Filters don't know if the sub is expensive or not. They add delay no matter what.  So unless you can turn them off in the sub it won't matter: you will always get a longer distance reported.  I have the feeling you somehow think this is a bad thing. It's not at all as long as there is compensation for the added delay. 

The lowpass filter on the sub should be set to the highest value before running the calibration and it should be left there--forever.

The volume level should be set to the mid-point or below and not touched after that.  As mentioned in the instructions in the first post of this thread, make sure that MultEQ is not reporting –12 dB as the level adjustment. If it is, then the sub level is too high and you have to turn it down and run MultEQ again.

"No correlation. Filters don't know if the sub is expensive or not. They add delay no matter what.  So unless you can turn them off in the sub it won't matter: you will always get a longer distance reported.  I have the feeling you somehow think this is a bad thing. It's not at all as long as there is compensation for the added delay."

Thank you mentioning that.. I always thought that MultiEq had issues with my subwoofer. With my older Polk subs, I'll get some ridiculous distance measurements (30 feet) when the sub sat no more than 9 feet from my sitting area. I'll always go and manually change the measurements to the actual foot distance, not know I was screwing things up.

Chris, 

 I have a side wall that is 75% sliding glass door. Total room size is 14x13 (basically a box).  I also have a 4ftx4ft skylight that is right above my listening area. My HT room is not a perfect box when it comes to the ceiling. Ceiling is 8ft high but after 7ft from the tV wall it slopes down the remiaing 7 feet in the room. Room is 14ft front to back. The listening area (couch) is under the sloped part where the Sky light is. My sound engineer friend says the room is actually a really good shape for accoustics. Outside that he is no help with anything. He originally manually set my system but I think he has been sitting in a sound studio too long. It didn't sound right to me. He actually works for Skywalker Sound (George Lucas). Skylight does have a cloth blind that I can open and close.

Question,  Should Audyssey be run with the curtains and blinds open or closed? Time spent in the room is 50/50 when it comes to curtains/blinds open/closed.

thanks

.

Hi John,

I believe what your friend is talking about is the sloped walls.  They do help in avoiding parallel surfaces and the reflections they cause.  So he's right!

I wouldn't worry about the blinds on the skylight for two reasons: (1) it's above the listening area and so no first reflections from the speakers hit it and (2) most problems in small rooms are at low frequencies and so the curtains/blinds don't have any effect on those.

Chris, I just purchased an Onkyo TX-NR809 receiver which has MultEQ XT. I have two different 12" subwoofers with similar power, but from different companies. My receiver has two subwoofer outputs, but I have read that you recommend using a Y-cable to connect both subs to one output, but according to the 809's owners manual: "The same signal is output from each jack", so it sounds like it's basically an internal Y-splitter. Shouldn't I get the same results using each seperate output for each sub in this particular situation, or is there something that I don't understand? This is my first receiver with Audyssey, and I want to make sure I do everything the best way possible. Thank you for your help.

Hi Michael,

The y-cord recommendation is for products that don't do this internally.  In your case either method will work.

Hi Chris,

Going back to the following comment you made:

@Kevon: ... You should always, always, always take all the available measurements regardless of the size of the room. It's not a matter of placing the mic in every seat.** The algorithm needs to collect data from the listening area** and the recommended mic placement is shown here. March 25, 2012 08:13 am.

In the room correction setup section my Onkyo TX-SR 707 manual says:

Next:

Select "Next" to begin measuring the next measurement position...

Finish (Calculate):

Select this if you don't want to measure any more listening positions and are ready to calculate the results, then go to step 8.

Having taken measurements at all 6 positions, rather than just 3, I achieved a tremendous improvement in sound quality with much smoother, deeper bass and more expanded soundstage.

Now, please, tell me, why the heck did Onkyo provide for the option to skip the remaining 4th, 5th and 6th measurement after the third one is complete, wasn't that section of manual written on the basis of Audyssey setup instructions? The language saying "if you don't want to measure any more listening positions" is extremely misleading in this context as when setting the system up in a small room like mine one would quite logically use this option and skip the remaining 4th, 5th and 6th measurements, which results, as now I have compared, in much poorer quality sound. Maybe the point of the absolute requirement to "always, always, always taking all the available measurements" should be stressed by Audyssey to AVR manufacturers, as well as in this forum's setup recommendations somehow? Any comments on that?

Best regards,

Alex

Hi Alex,

We don't know why this language is there... My guess is that they are afraid of scaring off less dedicated customers.  We stress the point of taking all measurements as much as we can, but in the end we don't get to write the manuals.  

Thanks for your reply, Chris

Certainly, Onkyo might be afraid of scaring off new customers, but with manuals written as misleading as that they stand a good chance of losing LOTS of their customers. I guess that's the case when marketing ploys take priority over technology, and this is SO STUPID of them. Based on that I can tell they don't really care about customer satisfaction, and this is real sad...

Anyway, words can't say how much I appreceiate your help and this forum, Chris, if not for you, I would never set up my system correctly, so, thanks a million!

Best regards,

Alex

Hi Chris

I have on Onkyo tx-nr809 and am running a seaton submersive sub. I am having trouble calibrating audyssey. I keep getting a 'speaker detect error' and the subwoofer is shown as 'error'. I have the sub gain set (dial at approx 5 o'clock) so as it is at 75db during audyssey. The sub does not have crossover or phase knobs. The sub does not have a auto-on/always-on selector switch, it is always on. I can hear chirps from the sub during the testing and they do not seem to get louder. 

What could be the problem?

Cheers,

Ollie

Hi Ollie,

One reason for the error is that the sub is turned up too high and the measurements are clipping the mic.  Can you try turning down the volume?  I know you are setting it to roughly 75 dB, but let's ignore that for a moment while we troubleshoot.

Hi Chris

Thanks for the response.

I turned the sub down to its lowest setting, almost inaudible, and I still get the error.

What next?

Hi Ollie, 

Are you absolutely sure that the error is for the sub?  Are you looking on the front panel of the 809 or on the on-screen display on the TV?  I'm afraid I'm out of ideas...

Hi Chris

I'm looking at the on-screen GUI and it is definitely the sub that has the error.

The submersive is quite a capable sub and has usable output to quite high output frequencies, do you think this is the problem?

The strange thing is that I have managed to get it working in the past with no errors.

That could be the issue.  If the sub response is extending up to higher frequencies then the measurement may be getting confused thinking that it's not really a sub that is connected there.  Is there something different about this measurement from the ones you were taking before?  Perhaps the higher frequencies were not reaching the mic before--e.g. if the sub was behind furniture.

Hi Chris,

I now own two Subwoofer with identical parameters, I already noticed that I should make sure that the distance to the Main Listening Point should be identical.

But hat I`m asking myself, should I place the Microphone and start measuring one Sub after the other to set dem to the same Volume at first?

One Sub will be ca. 1.5 Metres out of the Corner in the Front and one will be before a streight Frontwall. So with Same Sub-Volume Setting one will be around 6db Louder than the other.

As I own Denone 3312 and it has a second Sub Out but this is the same signal than the first port,so just a second Connector,nor real x.2 Reciever and I have two measure both Sub as one virtual Sub.

Would you agree in setting same Listening Volume @ Main Listening Position at first?

@Ollie

just an Idea:

I got a new Sub Amplifier on Friday and returned it Today, because Audyssey couldn`t measure it to less than -12db, equel at which Level the Volume Potti was.

The second Amp works fine, so the Volume knob or anything in the AMP is defect, so may be also not measuring or Audyssey is the Problem,the AMP of the Sub may have a Problem....and as I tell my German Users, "Things that are broken have often the problem to have done well in the past, so of course was yesterday everything fine"

@Alex: yes, the listening volume setting should be done in the listening position.

@Ollie: I have also seen this problem with volume knobs on sub amplifiers that are defective and don't properly track as you turn them.

Chris, sorry of course I`d measure from the prim. listening Position to set the Volume.

I meant to do single measure,let calculate to see the Subwoofer Level Adjustment, do this and correct the Sub Volume Lever until Audyssey displays 0,0db for the Subwoofer.

then switch the first Subwoofer off, turn on the second,and also do a single measure and correct the volume until Audyssey displays 0,0 db for the second Sub.

And then start to measure 8 Points to get the final result while both Sub`s are activated.

This should lead to a result where both Sub`s act on perfectly nearly the same volume.

Agree?

But I`m asking if an additional Subwoofer EQ/Antimode would improve the Quality more then just using Audyssey,what do you think?

Hi Alex,

That's what I meant as well.  There is no need to worry about getting the sub level to 0 via Audyssey.  As long as it's the same as the other sub (and not –12 dB) you are fine.  I don't think there is a need for additional sub processing.