Subwoofer setup and MultEQ

Hi Ryan,

The reason for the longer distance is because the processing in your sub adds delay to the signal. MultEQ sees that and adjusts for it so that the signal arrives at the same time as the other speakers.  You should leave it as found.  The volume setting is also made so that the sub plays at the same level as the other speakers.  This is how systems are set up in the mixing room. If you have a preference for more bass that is higher than reference then you can change it, but you will no longer be listening to the content the way it was mixed.

Hi Chris,

I've listened to some other deep bass tracks and I came to the conclusion that it is a tone equalization issue, precisely stating I get occasional too harsh passages in the upper low frequency when they actually shouldn't be there, could it be a problem with my AAD M8-T speakers or is it a repetitive Audyssey MultEQ equalization error? Could it be caused by my AAD M-8T front speakers being placed too close to the wall (front speakers woofers are facing the walls and being in like, give or take just 1 foot away from it) - I had to place them like that due to room space limitations. I got a tiny room with the length of approx. 14.43 feet and width of approx. 7.21 feet and my front speakers and subwoofer are placed in the same line with subwoofer being to the right side of the front left speaker because there is front left speaker woofer facing the wall to the left side. Given the very small width of the room, when running MultEQ setup measurements, can I leave the mike at the same place without moving it for all the three measurement positions as the recommended 1 foot distance between the listening positions would make measurement results very controversial in this narrow kind of room? What should be the minimal distances from side walls? I have a couch in the middle of the room, could the bass response measurement inaccuracy be caused by the back of the couch partially obstructing the signal from the mike to the subwoofer, should the entire space of subwoofer speaker unobstructedly face the mike? After all, is it at all possible to achieve correct MultEQ room equalisation in this odd and tiny room?

Sorry it took me so long to explain,

Many thanks,

Alex

The vibrations are most likely coming from mechanical coupling.  So, usually, the best way to reduce is to isolate the sub from the floor with some sort of stiff rubber feet.  I seriously doubt this has anything to do with polarity.  

It's not surprising that the 4 subs had a smoother response.  That's one of the key reasons to add more subs: driving the room modes from multiple points smooths out the response.

Hi Chris,

Do you recommend crossing at 80 Hz regardless of how low your speakers are capable of going?  For example, if all your speakers are capable of going well below 60 Hz, should you cross over at 80 Hz or 60 Hz?

Thanks in advance.

Rob

OK, that makes sense.  If each sub is calibrated to reference individually then together they need to be down by some amount between 3-6 dB.  Remember, the goal is to keep the bass level at reference and two subs playing correlated content together will sound louder than one.  So, this is normal.

I don't know why there is "less bass" feeling.  That should not be the case.  

hi Chris,

is the xt32 capable of correcting the frequencies below 20 hz and which is the limit?

Ooops, no edit ...

The sub channel distance was manipulated after setting up Audyssey.  The dip was removed at the MLP (and very nearby); I do not know if he looked at what effect that had across the entire seating area.

Jeff

Hi Paul,

1) Audyssey will measure the two subs and come up with the best correction filter (amplitude and phase).  I don't think there is much point in playing with the polarity switch, but it can't really hurt either.

2) It would probably be best to raise the speakers a littler higher so that the back row is not obstructed.  If that's not possible, then slightly raising the mic is OK as you suggest.

3) I agree with the manufacturer

4) Not sure what this means... Audyssey sets the levels from the first mic position which should be in the main listening position.  If a properly calibrated sound level meter is placed in the same location then it should register the same level as what Audyssey measured.

It's OK to move the crossovers higher.  This sends more content to the subwoofer MultEQ filters that have higher resolution.

I have a similar sub to Chris - a Klipsch RSW-10d (a little smaller but self-powered).  I just got my speakers last week and Onkyo TX-NR709 last night and started setting everything and tried running Audyssey and had the same problems with it not detecting the sub.  I'm thinking that it may have been too loud like you suggested above.  However, I noticed that Chris said his was set at "Lowpass - 120 Hz".  The Klipsch has the option to bypass or something like that and I thought that I had read that we were supposed to set it to that?

Hi Robert,

If these are typical home doors, then they will make little difference in stopping the bass from leaking to the next room.  They may make a difference in the upper bass range and that could explain the difference in readings.  I would recommend running Audyssey for the conditions that will be used during listening (presumably with the doors closed).

The best way is to y-cord to two pairs of subs.  Each sub in the pair should be at the same distance as the other sub in the pair since it will be impossible to set their levels and distances individually via Audyssey.

Hello Chris,

thank you for your previous feedback a while ago.

Regarding my -12db Sub problem in my 5.2 system (fronts with integrated active subs): Since you stated that the low freq sound from the subs isn't directional I ended up just using one Sub. My initial thought was, that i would benefit from symmetrical sub-sound. The measurements still give me -12db with one sub (i am already at the lowest volume on the sub) but it sounds pretty good. (btw: Why is the value limited to -12db?)

Another question: My surround speakers seem to be too loud in comparison to the front/center sound. I did the initial measurement exactly from my primary watch position at ear height. If i manually lower the surrounds a few db, would this mess up the MultiEQ measurements? If thats the case, whats the best way to go?

Thanks again,

Marcus 

Hi Subu,

Please contact techsupport@audyssey.com.  They can answer these questions for you.  If you purchase the kit, it will include the microphone and the necessary software.  You will also have to purchase a license key for your AVR.  That can be done on the Audyssey website once you register your kit serial number with our database.

Hi Jules, the Frequency knob applies a lowpass filter to the signal.  It's there for people with legacy analog 2-channel gear that have no bass management.  If you can't turn it off, then set it to the highest frequency allowed (150 Hz in this case) and leave it there permanently.  More info here: http://ask.audyssey.com/forums/84181/entries/76175.html

I have a REL R305 and an M&K V125 sub connected to my Denon AVR 5805MK2 with 7 speakers, FL, C, FR, SR, SBR, SBL, SL. I currently have the subs set up as R & L. I chose the configuration in the manual that refers to a 7.2 front R & L setup. I have addressed this before here and with Denon and Denon said that the 5805MK2 does send separate signals to each sub so they did not recommend using a Y cord and using the single sub out on the receiver for multiple subs.

I have just finished my room including treatments. I am trying again to use the auto setup in the 5805 and I am getting less than satisfactory results with Audyssey. I have tried it both with a Y cord and without. My current question is the LFE volume knob on the REL, what should this level be set at? All of the documentation I see tells me to set the Sub's volume to 1/2 and the crossover to max freq. I have done this but like I said my REL has an extra setting for LFE level.

The second thing is this great question I can't seem to answer which is to "Y" cord or not to "Y" cord my two subs. When I run the setup in my 7.2 config I do get 2 separate distances from the subs to the microphone like Denon tech support said it does. Can you please comment on this? Also I have chosen to use the connector REL supplies to connect from the sub to the front main L and R speakers. According to REL Tech support this sends the main L & R signals to the sub's processor for additional EQ'ing with the speakers signal. Why would I want to not use this feature? To me not using it is like not using all the whistles and bells that come with the best units... This is why I am trying to configure all of these items with the Denon and get them to work with the built in Audyssey MultiEQ xt, I would like to use all of the features of my equipment.

Thank you

Thanks for the response Chris.

I'm nowhere near reference level when listening - typically between -30 and -15db depending on source. I'm pretty sure the sub would be capable of reference level listening anyway (you can check out the specs here if you like:  http://www.pure-acoustics.com/design/manuals/manual_noble_sub.pdf).

It's a strange one I admit. If we look at it another way, it's as if the gain has to be turned up for MultEQ calibration. When the gain is back down to a quarter of the way up, it seems to be the right volume level, but if I then run MultEQ, the trim is either +12db or is not detected at all.

Chris...

My setup is Monitor Audio RX8s / RX Centre / Q Acoustic 2010i rears / BK Monolith sub.

I've run the Audyssey calibration a few times now as i've slowly been introducing new components but the last time I did it my crossover freq results were

Front - Full Band

Centre- Full Band

Surround - 60hz

Did something go very wrong with the process or can that happen? And if so what would be the cause?

AVR sub mode is set to LFE and Bass Setting is 120Hz

I obviously did make sure thereafter that speakers were set to small and crossovers were changed to:

Fronts - 60hz

Centre - 60hz

Surround - 80hz

But is that enough?

Audyssey's channel levels were originally...

Front -6.5

Centre -7.0

Sub -10.5

....which brings me to my main query. Is it recommended to alter these levels or not? For instance, if I feel my surrounds are too prominent can I lower their level? If I feel dialogue isn't clear is it ok to increase the centre?

My main concern is the sub though - If im not happy with the sub's sound (just don't feel it's generally got enough punch) is it recommended to just increase the channel level? Or .... would it be a better idea to run the calibration all over again and lower the sub's low level gain? I tried at 12 o 'clock already and it measured -12db and last time I ran Audyssey I made sure it was at around 10 o clock which gave the -10.5db reading.

Basically i've been comparing bassy moments in movies and music blurays in Stereo and 5.1 and though its clear when the sub is there I don't feel the difference is substantial enough considering the quality of the Monolith which leads me to think i'm not getting the best out of it.

Cheers

Stu

What did MultEQ find for the center channel roll off?

Per items 4. Note: I own the Sub-EQ and have it configured as the default 1in - 2out.

if one sub has its own internal 7 band eq, that attempts to adjust the sub to a flat response from one listening position, as in the Velodyne Optimum series, should this be done first before running the Audyssey Mult EQ in the AVR or via the Audyssey Sub-EQ or via the MultEQ Pro calibration?

My other subs has one additional control of a built in parametric EQ. Prior to Audyssey, it'd set it to -6db @ 42Hz as there is a large peak in my room. Likewise, I could set it do nothing -OR- to a +6db @ 25Hz to give it a bass boost but that does not help with removing the 42Hz Peak. What should I do with this setting?

Hello Chris,

Thanks for your prompt reply, I've re-run the MultEQ with the highest frequency setting of lowpass filter knob and with the phase knob set to 0 degrees as per your basic recommendations and now the sound is just right, so, THANKS A MILLION for your kind advice and putting a stop to my tormenting search of acoustical peace of mind! :-)

Best regards,

Alex

Yes, any AVR that allows individual control of the two subs will help.  I don't think the phase control will do anything.  It simply adjusts the phase at one particular frequency, but will not help with the extension at the low end.

Hi Chris,

The sub is positioned near a corner, appr. 0,8 meters from the left wall, and about 5 cm from the back wall. In the right wall you can see the front of my AVR, the backside is in a closet (please see picture). Maybe a stupid question, but would it be wordt trying to move the sub inside the closet? As for alternatives: my wife already has strong opinions about speakers and particularly this sub, so i probably don't have much room for moving it anywhere els..

The room size is about 45 m2.

Do you see any possibillities?

Greetz, Demis

Hi Alex,

We don't know why this language is there... My guess is that they are afraid of scaring off less dedicated customers.  We stress the point of taking all measurements as much as we can, but in the end we don't get to write the manuals.  

@Matthew: The knob should be set the highest number for the same reason stated above.  The speakers should be set to Small otherwise no bass will be sent to the sub.

Chris,

I am sooooo glad I found this forum.

I have had the following setup for the last 4 years and have never really been happy with the bass management.

Denon AVR3808ci

Monitor Audio Radius 90 sats

Monitor Audio Radius 180 centre

Rel T1 sub

I set the sub up as per Rel's instructions, i.e high level input, front speakers set to large.

As I said, I have never been happy with the sound from the sub. It was either too boomy or not enough bass. I have constantly "fiddled" with all the settings but nothing sounded "just right. Yes 4 years of this!!!!!

I then found this forum so I thought "what the hell. Lets try setting the sub up the way you recommend. So I turned down the high level input, turned the low pass filter all the way up, turned the gain up to half way and ran Audyssey. Initially the trim level of the sub was -12db so I turned down the sub to 1/4 volume and ran Audyssey again. WOW is all I can say. The bass is now tamed, refined and present in everything from movies to music. The sound is so full all the way from the highs, through the middle and down to the lows. I am now so pleased with the results. It sounds like a completely different system all together.

Reason for my post.......to say thank you for all the help this forum has provided. I wished I had found this 4 years ago!!!!!

So to all those with Rel subs......throw away the instructions that came with the sub and follow the instructions here. You will then find the Rel sub really does sound fantastic.

Thanks again.

No, it doesn't consider the subs together.  If you want to do that, then we recommend using a single sub output and a y-cord to your subs.  Of course, then you won't be getting the benefit of individual time and level alignment of the subs.  To get the best of both worlds you will need to move to an external Sub Equalizer.

Hi Patrick
Yes it's fine to leave it on

Thx Chris,

I thought i had to manually align the phase between my subs and satellites because i was not sure that the distance increment steps available to XT32 in the prepro were small enough to tackle phase problem.

Maybe i should also explain why i think i have phase issues in my configuration: at some point in time, i tried a 4 subs configuration (my 2 SVS on the front wall, equidistant from MLP and my 2 old JBLs on the side walls facing each other and also equidistant from the MLP). Using the as-eq1, i made a 8 positions calibration and the resulting before graph was awful (a huge dip of 17dBs around 60Hz, the after graph being not much better). My previous calibrations with only the 2 JBLs or the 2 SVSs always resulted in before graphs with smaller dips (5dBs max).

As my SVSs did not have polarity switch, i flipped the phase switch on my JBLs (from 0 to 180, its a discrete switch, not a continuous control). I redid the calibration and everything was back to normal (2 small dips of max 3 dBs). As my JBLs subs and satellites have always been a perfect blend, i came to the conclusion that maybe my SVSs were out of phase with the satellites hence the tests i made by reversing the wires on one end of all the speakers cable...

If i questioned the capacity of MultEQ to solve that kind of problem is because the as-eq1 did not seem to have done anything to phase align both groups of subs at least on the before and after graphs.

So, if phase problems are handled automatically through the distance settings, what is the use of the phase warnings issued by MultEQ in most avr/prepro (my old av8003 used to display them each time though this functionality seems to have not been included in my onkyo 5509)?

Fred

PS: Sorry for this lengthy/tedious post but as you most certainly have seen, english is not my primary language and i am not sure i was making myself clear (i am still probably not) ;)

The MultEQ XT sub filter is applied up to 250 Hz (the highest available crossover frequency in the AVR).  It sounds like you have a room mode (or modes) in the region of 80-120 Hz.  When you switch to the higher crossover they are not corrected as well, but you may prefer the boom there.  This is a personal preference... MultEQ is doing its job better in the bass to smooth out the response when it gets to work on it in the sub channel.

Hi Chris,

I now own two Subwoofer with identical parameters, I already noticed that I should make sure that the distance to the Main Listening Point should be identical.

But hat I`m asking myself, should I place the Microphone and start measuring one Sub after the other to set dem to the same Volume at first?

One Sub will be ca. 1.5 Metres out of the Corner in the Front and one will be before a streight Frontwall. So with Same Sub-Volume Setting one will be around 6db Louder than the other.

As I own Denone 3312 and it has a second Sub Out but this is the same signal than the first port,so just a second Connector,nor real x.2 Reciever and I have two measure both Sub as one virtual Sub.

Would you agree in setting same Listening Volume @ Main Listening Position at first?